- 子地址功能 (Sub-addresses)
- 日後有關Monero硬體錢包的討論很可能會轉移到Monero社群會議(Monero Community meeting)
- redfish 和hyc 正在著手處理資料庫同步和損毀的問題
fluffypony> 1. Greetings
fluffypony> 2. Brief review of what’s been completed since the previous meeting
fluffypony> 3. Code + ticket discussion / Q & A
fluffypony> 4. Any additional meeting items
fluffypony> 5. Confirm next meeting date/time * rehrar (
Critical@173-12-204-46-Albuquerque.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) has email@example.com) has joined
fluffypony> and an additional point that I guess we can put in between 3 and 4: “Should regular hardware development reporting and discussion be part of #monero-dev (biweekly meetings), #monero-community (biweekly meetings), or something else?”
rbrunner> Grüezi mitenand
rehrar> I thought that could fall under 4., sorry
endogenic> Hi fluffypony!
rehrar> hi endogenic
fluffypony> moneromooo / hyc / luigi1111 you guys around?
hyc> nope * goksinen has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
moneromooo> I’m here
endogenic> o/ rehrar
fluffypony> so moving on to 2. Brief review of what’s been completed since the previous meeting
fluffypony> loads of merges
fluffypony> the big ones are lightweight wallet API support
fluffypony> and subaddresses * goksinen (
surae> at MRL, i wrote up a prototype for the spectre blockchain algorithm. i’m pushing it to my github later today. it is functional, but can be made prettier and more efficient, but it’s pretty much ready for stress testing so we can really see whether it’s a waste of energy or not * POJO_ (
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fluffypony> we also have a number of PRs going into the 0.11 branch, specifically: 2478, 2493, 2514, 2632, 2639, 2654
fluffypony> and then we’ll tag and release 0.11.1
moneromooo> yay ^_^
hyc> :D * monero (
monero> [monero] shmacoshmuesday closed pull request #2671: Add Dependencies for Fedora (master…master) https://git.io/vdyMC * monero (
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surae> the research-lab project has a PR waiting to be merged from my github on a similar note * POJO has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
fluffypony> surae: ok cool I’ll merge it now
hyc> that spectre stuff sounds great
rehrar> link to spectre stuff?
surae> hyc they just roll with this idea of having 10 blocks a second, it’s nutters
surae> zooko mentioned it to me, btw. :P gotta give credit where credit is due
fluffypony> ok moving on to 3
fluffypony> 3. Code + ticket discussion / Q & A * goksinen has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
hyc> is the set of patches for 11.0.1 pretty well settled?
fluffypony> unless there are some others beyond that list
moneromooo> I just cherry picked the OpenBSD one earlier, but it’s low impact.
fluffypony> I’ll add that to the list
fluffypony> ok so then I’d like to bring up the latest Verge FUD for discussion
fluffypony> for those that haven’t seen it
fluffypony> it’s literally just netstat
moneromooo> It’d be easier to just run print_cn or print_pl.
fluffypony> and then it excludes some nodes that he decided are “server nodes” (whatever that means)
fluffypony> moneromooo: too sophisticated
fluffypony> that said, I have received several messages from people who are quite concerned that Monero is not private
fluffypony> oh - there’s also this fun article: https://bitsonline.com/monero-exploit-threatens-privacy/
surae> i haven’t seen these latest criticisms at all yet
surae> but i have to ask
rbrunner> The “fun article” is really bad
surae> what is our policy going to be for writing responses to criticisms?
surae> consider the miller and kumar papers, right? long papers. writing responses takes a long time…
pigeons> DoS by stupid claims
endogenic> rbrunner: looks more like a hit piece
fluffypony> the anonymint post is even longer, and we largely ignored it
fluffypony> because it was a massive waste of time
saddam> If you don’t want to be on his “list”, just leave your monerod running 24/7
moneromooo> I say ignore the obvious bullshit. People gonna pump and dump anyway.
surae> not all their criticisms are false (although a lot are outdated), but my point is this: if someone writes a 1000 word article claiming something about monero’s privacy, it will in general take 9000 words to “debunk” the false parts and explain why the true parts are either part of the design or already on our roadmap for improvement
endogenic> Arent there other cases of having published this data anyway? Like monero node maps
hyc> ‘The amount of energy required to dispel bullshit is an order of magnitude greater than that required to propagate it’.
hyc> 1 reply 1 retweet 0 likes
vtnerd> wow, that article is really dumb
surae> hyc ha, i was close with a factor of 9
endogenic> So alternative to refutation is be like yeah get with the times
surae> i liked the monero challenge thing
surae> i *love* that idea
gingeropolous> how close is i2p?
gingeropolous> er, kovri
fluffypony> gingeropolous: still a little ways away - but we’d still need to refute this criticism even if it was in place
endogenic> Also want to know
fluffypony> because aiui the way that Verge works is that it’s only Tor or i2p
fluffypony> which is open to isolation and Sybil attacks, but they don’t care about that
moneromooo> I’m not sure how this is complicated. If you want your IP to be hidden, use Tor. Like everyone else.
fluffypony> moneromooo: in the same way that ZCash can say “if you want your transaction to be hidden use shielded addresses”
ArticMine> Kovri will fix all of this anyway
pigeons> there are people that try to connect to as many nodes as possible and record which transactions they first see relayed from those nodes, but that’s not new
moneromooo> Well, that is true, no ?
gingeropolous> i mean, the only response is to explain how blockchains and the internet works
fluffypony> yes - but if it’s not the default mode then it’s not worth talking about
moneromooo> OK. Then we’re not anonymous, and we’ll be once kovri, done.
moneromooo> Much easier than dealing with the bullshit ^_^
surae> fluffypony “we’d still need to refute this criticism”
— i totally disagree. this is not only a known issue, we are building kovri around solving it
pigeons> if people were surprised by this its good they are aware of it
fluffypony> anonimal: what are your thoughts on us spending some time building out the mixnet stuff, and bundling Tor until Kovri is ready?
fluffypony> surae: their netstat bot would continue to publish node IPs and they’d continue to push that agenda
endogenic> Surae: arent those two facts what makes refutation possible? :p
moneromooo> fluffypony: is that takes time, I’m against it. It’s just wasting time for something which wasn’t in good faith to begin with.
surae> fluffypony: what refutation would get them to stop publishing node IPs?
moneromooo> Or, at least, I won’t waste my own time on it.
rehrar> The only valid criticsm I think they have (but correct me if I’m wrong) is that in a country where Monero is 100% outlawed, the government could see an IP address connecting to the Monero network (can’t see if/when transactions are sent though), and that person could get in trouble. But that’s the only information they have, no?
Yohkii> Just make a bot that does the same to verge, including where transactions come and go
Yohkii> less effort
rbrunner> Wouldn’t they happily go on and publish Tor IP’s anyway, people would not know these
fluffypony> moneromooo: we have to build out the ipv4 / mixnet stuff anyway, we’d just be plugging Tor in instead of Kovri till Kovri is ready, so it’s 95% useful work, 5% effort that will be replaced later
surae> fluffypony: oh your recommended tactic here, then, is to first push tor until kovri is ready?
fluffypony> surae: none - but a published refutation would allow us to point people to it - the getmonero.org post responding to the Miller paper is my go-to when people ask about it
fluffypony> surae: yes that’s what I was thinking
dEBRUYNE> I can write a post fwiw
moneromooo> OK, if it’s shared stuff then that’s good.
dEBRUYNE> But would probably need some help on the really technical stuff
rbrunner> Is it even technical? Internet 1x1: IPs!
gingeropolous> im kinda confused - our proposed kovri implementation was gonna keep blocks on clearnet anyway, so this “attack” would still be able to “identify” monero users
moneromooo> AIUI, it can do both.
gingeropolous> are we just gonna switch too 100% kobri, all the time?
moneromooo> Well, it will be able to do both :)
gingeropolous> right. but the bandwidth.
dEBRUYNE> gingeropolous: There was supposed to be i2p only | i2p/ip | ip only
fluffypony> gingeropolous: yes that’s what I was saying to surae
dEBRUYNE> Also, iirc if you push blocks over i2p you might incur latency issues, which increases the probability of an orphan
richie> (moneromoo, do you have a slack account i can DM, dont’ wannt interrupt what you guys are doing)
pigeons> which transactions came from which nodes/ips affects privacy more than knowing you run monero. if you relayed a block first, yeah it could make your pool a traget, but there are other mitigations for that
moneromooo> Just post the URL in #monero * anonimal has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
rbrunner> I have a hunch the Verge people will use the log of this meeting to show that “Monero devs are in panic”…
fluffypony> rbrunner: lol
endogenic> Is this issue within sarang’s wheelhouse? I know he was looking into working on kovri
gingeropolous> pigeons, yeah I get that. but this “criticism” doesn’t even address that.
gingeropolous> its just ermagerd ips
pigeons> gingeropolous: well that isnt interesting
fluffypony> gingeropolous: great summary
fluffypony> ok well we’ll wait for anonimal to comment on it, and we can go from there
gingeropolous> i know. but ppl have tried to explain the cost of actual sybil using the public ips and trying to track txs with this “weakness”
fluffypony> let’s move on to 3. b. * anonimal (
fluffypony> Should regular hardware development reporting and discussion be part of #monero-dev (biweekly meetings), #monero-community (biweekly meetings), or something else?
msvb-lab> There are some good reasons that hardware development progress reports and discussion should be moved from the biweekly #monero-dev schedule (where the accepted forum proposal mandates.)
msvb-lab> So unless anyone strongly objects, it’s gone from now on and will become part of either (1) #monero-community meetings or (2) #monero-hardware meetings.
msvb-lab> Whoever wants to know if it will be (1) or (2) should attend next week’s #community meeting which will decide, okay?
moneromooo> What’s the difference between #monero-aparataro and #monero-hardware btw ?
moneromooo> Both seem empty. * lkolstad (
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msvb-lab> I created aparataro but then changed it to hardware.
moneromooo> Ah OK.
msvb-lab> …since the IRC channel ‘community’ is english non esperanto.
msvb-lab> So I wanted to be consistent there.
msvb-lab> Speaking of esperanto, before the hardware story fades into the sunset, here’s a new topic.
msvb-lab> We tried and failed to give RFC-HWALLET-1 an esperanto name, so will rename our repository ‘Sekura’ to rfchwallet, okay?
msvb-lab> github.com/monero-project/rfchwallet * ncr (
endogenic> I enjoy naming. I’ll let you know later if i have some suggestions
msvb-lab> We need a person to handle surveying a number of related Monero groups in order to get a good name that doesn’t conflict in any way.
msvb-lab> No person is able to take this role, so if it appears it will be much later after risk of failure drops.
msvb-lab> endogenic: Thanks * dkoleary88 ([email protected]/web/freenode/ip.22.214.171.124) has joined
fluffypony> ok endogenic is in charge of naming
fluffypony> Chief Naming Officer
hyc> one of the hardest problems in CS. good man
msvb-lab> Report on a privacy conference CCC puts on which I did a workshop at today after the meeting finishes.
msvb-lab> There was Monero activity and considerable interest…
endogenic> Now we just need to let them in on kovri and…
endogenic> I think monero-hardware would be a better venue
endogenic> For hardware specific mtgs
endogenic> Status updates propagate anyway * vtnerd_ (
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msvb-lab> endogenic: I’ll let the #community folks know that’s your opinion. They won’t agree.
endogenic> And maybe i can figure out a way to give michael op :p
endogenic> Oh ok
msvb-lab> op? An operation?
endogenic> I guess all ffs mtgs now go in community lolol
endogenic> Op -> operator status
msvb-lab> Even better, I want business cards like fluffypony.
fluffypony> lol * dkoleary_ (
fluffypony> let’s move on to 4. Any additional meeting items * erciccione_ ([email protected]) has joined * ErCiccione has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
fluffypony> anything up for discussion?
moneromooo> When are you releasing 0.11.0.1 ? Before tomorrowish ?
rehrar> luigi is site repo maintainer now right?
fluffypony> moneromooo: it’ll be tomorrow - but I’ll do the merges now and start building
fluffypony> rehrar: yes
moneromooo> OK, thanks. * dkoleary_ is now known as dkoleary88_ * dkoleary88 has quit (Quit: Page closed) * dkoleary88_ is now known as dkoleary88
redfish> regarding https://github.com/monero-project/monero/issues/2545#issuecomment-337374284
redfish> just wanted to put in a vote for db-safe to be the default during sync as well
fluffypony> hyc: thoughts? ^^
redfish> (i ended up running a node for months with a corrupt blockchain DB)
rbrunner> Is the speed difference known on a typical PC?
hyc> it’ll beat most drives to shit. and be slow.
redfish> we can add to the readme in the “Running monerod” section, that “you have an option to speed up, if you can be confident that the node will not fail while synching”
hyc> I mean, most consumer storage devices will probably see premature death.
rbrunner> Death by Monero :)
redfish> hyc: why? it won’t matter after sync, and sync is temporary
redfish> didn’t you say daemon is in db-safe mode after sync completes, already.
redfish> so, why would increasing the load on the disk during the hours/few days of syncing make that big of a difference on the disk lifetime?
hyc> during normal operation whenyou’re already sync’d, you’re getting 1 new data item per 2 minutes.
redfish> (btw, sidenote: with slow disks, despite there being so little new data, it spends 90% of those 2 minutes reading)
gingeropolous> hrm… perhaps we should make kovri the default network interface when it is ready. The only nodes that really could be affected by delays are pools. We should be private by default. If a pool wants to get gains by running over clearnet, they can run a flag. A regular user isn’t affected if they are 2-4 minutes behind the current state.
redfish> my disks right now are so slow, that the node actually can’t keep up. (Disk usage is continuous, monerod in D state continously)
redfish> but this is sidetracking. I’m still not clear on hyc’s point about db-safe during sync being a disk killer.
hyc> if you had more RAM it woukd have more cached, and less read load
redfish> yeah, there’s only 2GB, of which only ~1GB is free for the caching…
hyc> but large number of IOs spread over 2 minutes is gentler than spit out as fast as possible
hyc> SSDs need time for background wear-leveling to do its thing
fluffypony> let’s wind it down and continue this discussion after the meeting
redfish> are you referring to operation after sync or during sync?
fluffypony> is everyone happy with Nov 5th as the next meeting date ?
fluffypony> ok cool - meeting over