- Windows GUI沒有適當備援圖形庫的問題已解決了
- v0.12.1版預期會在5/9完成, “可能“會是測試版
- 會提供更容易使用Ledger 硬體錢包的方式
1:02 PM <_Slack> <rehrar> 1. Greetings
1:02 PM <@ArticMine> Hi
1:02 PM <+moneromooo> stoffu: ^
1:02 PM <xmrscott[m]> Howdy
1:02 PM <Alex_LocalMonero> Hello.
1:02 PM <rbrunner> Hoi zäme
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1:03 PM <vtnerd> hi
1:03 PM <ErCiccione> Hi!
1:03 PM <xmrmatterbridge> <oneiric> hi
1:03 PM <xmrmatterbridge> <el00ruobuob> Hi
1:04 PM <_Slack> <rehrar> 2. Brief review of what’s been completed since the previous meeting
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1:05 PM <_Slack> <rehrar> Watchoo foo’s been up to.
1:06 PM <sarang> hiyo
1:07 PM <sarang> Some of MRL went to an IEEE workshop that had some Monero focus
1:07 PM <sarang> Learned of some funny bizniss that evil remote nodes can do, ways to represent rings, and, most interesting, refund txns
1:08 PM <gingeropolous> evil public remote
1:08 PM <gingeropolous> well, i guess one you control could get compromised
1:09 PM <sarang> The proposed attacks mean that such a node could present corrupted mixins and determine true spend
1:09 PM <gingeropolous> ouch
1:09 PM <sarang> But we already present a warning to the user in the case that the known spend is corrupted when returned by the node
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1:10 PM <rehrar> I have arrived
1:10 PM <Alex_LocalMonero> Hello there.
1:10 PM <sarang> The only way it provides any advantage is if the node selectively returns false outputs, and this only statistically works a small amount of time
1:10 PM <@fluffypony> so remote nodes are bad, mmmkay?
1:10 PM <sarang> So I consider our current mitigation to be fine
1:10 PM <sarang> lol
1:10 PM <gingeropolous> lol
1:10 PM <xmrmatterbridge> <michael> $ whoami(msvb)
1:10 PM <sarang> But yes, you shouldn’t use an evil remote node anyway
1:10 PM <rehrar> oh nice, we have michael from hardware too. Update from you guys?
1:11 PM <@ArticMine> There is enough deterrence since an evil node is then exposed
1:11 PM <sarang> ArticMine: yes, a node that pulls this crap a lot will get blacklisted by the community
1:11 PM <sarang> I consider the research useful, but not a practical problem
1:12 PM <sarang> It was also responsibly disclosed, so thanks to the researchers for doing it right
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1:12 PM <xmrmatterbridge> <michael> rehrar: I’m on mobile, kind of read only.
1:13 PM <rehrar> no worries. People can always check out your Taiga for updates
1:13 PM <rbrunner> What is it whith those mobiles 🙂
1:13 PM <sarang> Any other questions/comments for MRL?
1:14 PM <rehrar> is the most secure setup to run your own full node behind a username and password, and connect to it with your mobile devices?
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1:14 PM <tjfkfoaofbrcdj> any status updates on bulletproof audits?
1:15 PM <sarang> rehrar: probably
1:15 PM <@ArticMine> There is actually an advantage to using a remote node even of one also runs a full node
1:15 PM <sarang> ArticMine: how?
1:15 PM <sarang> blending in with many other txns?
1:15 PM <@ArticMine> Hiding your IP from the network
1:15 PM <sarang> tjfkfoaofbrcdj: Kudelski and QuarksLab have begun their work
1:15 PM <@ArticMine> When sending a tx
1:15 PM <rehrar> sarang: can you quickly check when the other guy starts also?
1:16 PM <sarang> Benedikt was mid-May IIRC
1:16 PM <sarang> I’m looking up his more accurate statement in my email
1:17 PM <sarang> Benedikt estimates he will start on May 21, finishing by June 4
1:17 PM <rehrar> ArticMine: mitigated with Kovri after release, correct?
1:17 PM <sarang> Kudelski will finish by mid-July
1:18 PM <sarang> I’ll be checking in with all auditors this week (and weekly thereafter)
1:18 PM <@fluffypony> fyi: my bandwidth is abysmal (64 bytes from 18.104.22.168: icmp_seq=14 ttl=53 time=795.821 ms) so I’m just observing in silence
1:18 PM <@ArticMine> Yes of course but Kovri is not out yet
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1:19 PM <rehrar> ArticMine: one day….
1:19 PM <rehrar> anything else to report as being done the past couple weeks?
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1:19 PM <dEBRUYNE> I guess I can provide a few updates on the GUI if peeps are interested
1:20 PM <sarang> fo sho
1:20 PM <Alex_LocalMonero> Please do.
1:20 PM <dEBRUYNE> All right. I’ll first start with the critical bugs in GUI v0.12
1:21 PM <dEBRUYNE> – There was the bad_cast issue, which resulted in a subset of Linux users being unable to properly run the GUI
1:21 PM <dEBRUYNE> i.e. the GUI wouldn not connect to the daemon that was running already
1:21 PM <dEBRUYNE> – A subset of users reported that the GUI was laggy (even when using a remote node). This has been fixed by stoffu. It was caused by the tracking stuff
1:22 PM <dEBRUYNE> Stoffu also made a commit that ensures the GUI uses the same daemon connection, which should improve stability and connectivity
1:22 PM <rehrar> I love when you talk like that dEBRUYNE 😉
1:23 PM <dEBRUYNE> Then for Windows users GUI v0.12 wasn’t using proper graphic fallback. We’re busy fixing the Win environment and are waiting on pazos for some test results. It’s a bit of a pita since QT has to be built statically
1:23 PM <dEBRUYNE> ^ Those are all fixes for issues in GUI v0.12
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1:23 PM <rehrar> *applause*
1:23 PM <dEBRUYNE> Then dsc_ / dsc2 has also improved the Show status window + the receive page, as can be seen from here:
1:23 PM <dEBRUYNE> https://github.com/monero-project/monero-gui/pull/1359 (receive page)
1:24 PM <dEBRUYNE> https://github.com/monero-project/monero-gui/pull/1341
1:24 PM <dEBRUYNE> Also a few other bugs present in GUI v0.12 have been fixed, but mostly minor stuff
1:25 PM <dEBRUYNE> I guess that’s it. One more thing I wanted to talk about is rbrunner’s Windows installer. I think we should really add it for GUI v0.12.1
1:25 PM <dEBRUYNE> It’s (i) easier and more intuitive for the user and (ii) actually somewhat more secure
1:25 PM <rehrar> add it to the website, you mean?
1:25 PM <+moneromooo> Can you expand on (ii) ?
1:26 PM <dEBRUYNE> moneromooo: Let me check what rbrunner said
1:26 PM <rbrunner> Ah, I can take over, if you like
1:26 PM <dEBRUYNE> rehrar: Yes. So we would have the installer + the portable .zip file
1:26 PM <dEBRUYNE> Oh he’s here actually 😛
1:26 PM <dEBRUYNE> Nice
1:26 PM <dEBRUYNE> Sure rbrunner, go ahead
1:26 PM <rbrunner> The installer copies the monero files to a place in the file system where you only can change them with admin rights
1:27 PM <rbrunner> Namely C:\Program Files
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1:27 PM <rbrunner> So they do not just lay around somewhere in the filesystem …
1:28 PM <rbrunner> That’s not revolutionary, but the proper way, the way it should be
1:28 PM <+moneromooo> So you have to get admin rights to install, and that makes it more secure ?
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1:29 PM <+moneromooo> Naively, I’d think that makes it less secure.
1:29 PM <rbrunner> Yes, because the access is restricted to a well-defined point in time
1:29 PM <@ArticMine> Adin rights in Windows is trivial. Most malware knows how to get it
1:29 PM <rbrunner> And after that it’s somewhat protected
1:29 PM <+moneromooo> Oh, you mean otherwise you need admoin rights every time you run it ??
1:30 PM <rbrunner> No, don’t think so
1:30 PM <@ArticMine> Also if the files are always in the same place it makes it easy for malware
1:30 PM <rbrunner> But anyway, every program that is a “good citizen” on Windows goes there
1:31 PM <rbrunner> See how much power Linux gains from everybody respecting the norms.
1:31 PM <@ArticMine> Good citizen with respect to Microsoft’s vision of DRM
1:31 PM <rbrunner> IMHO we should do likewise on Windows
1:31 PM <rbrunner> But that’s probably not the main point of the installer, of course
1:32 PM <rbrunner> It’s simply easier for noobs, and with much easier updates
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1:32 PM <rbrunner> I included also icons to easily access logs
1:32 PM <rehrar> that’s definitely the bigger one, yes
1:32 PM <rbrunner> and the wallet directory
1:32 PM <rbrunner> and starting the daemon directly
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1:32 PM <rbrunner> and low-graphic wallet start
1:32 PM <rbrunner> and and and 🙂
1:33 PM <rbrunner> Really, the thing won’t hurt
1:33 PM <dEBRUYNE> If I recall correctly, most Windows programs give the user an option to run an installer or use a portable version
1:33 PM <dEBRUYNE> Imo we should do too, especially if the installer provides greater convenience
1:33 PM <rbrunner> Yes, and of course we don’t take away the ZIP
1:33 PM <rehrar> alright. michael is now able to write and give a hardware report if we’re down to hear it
1:33 PM <ErCiccione> is the installer to make it for 0.12.1? i would implement it in the guide if yes
1:34 PM <ErCiccione> *is the installer going to
1:34 PM <rbrunner> That’s the funny part: You can build the installer basically *any time*
1:34 PM <rbrunner> there are nearly no interdenpendencies
1:34 PM <rbrunner> Just take the content of the current release ZIP, pack it, release it – *any time*
1:34 PM <msvb-lab> rehrar: Oah yes, thanks.
1:34 PM <dEBRUYNE> ErCiccione: Imo we should add the installer for 0.12.1. We’ve been trying to add it since 0.11.1.0..
1:34 PM <rehrar> let’s do it.
1:35 PM <rehrar> I’ll put it on the website
1:35 PM <msvb-lab> An order of a bunch of developer boards is in but on hold due to a chinese problem (picking up at the DefCon Beijing office.)
1:35 PM <rbrunner> The current installer for Helium Hydra could have been published in January, February, March …
1:35 PM <msvb-lab> And our FFS to get a proper enclosure was turned live by Luigi (thanks!) a couple days ago.
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1:36 PM <msvb-lab> On a related note, we’re testing a hardware design that can be considered a wallet, but is an insecure NFC radio version.
1:36 PM <rbrunner> rehrar: I’ll put it on the website <- Thanks for that already now
1:36 PM <msvb-lab> To be given out at DefCon Vegas.
1:36 PM <msvb-lab> That’s all for a hardware team status report, thanks. Any questions?
1:36 PM <rehrar> rbrunner: it just takes someone to move it from talk to action 😀
1:36 PM <ErCiccione> rehrar: would be good to have the guide on the website, at least last releases (next one is 1.1)
1:37 PM <rbrunner> Yes, it’s like that most of the time 🙂
1:37 PM <rehrar> hardware questions?
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1:37 PM <rehrar> do we have a timeline for 1.1 btw?
1:37 PM <msvb-lab> rehrar: Yes, hardware questions, unless you want to talk about what purism has asked.
1:37 PM <rehrar> not at the moment. It’s still developing.
1:38 PM <ErCiccione> PDF of 1.1 will be out right after GUI 0.12.1 . It’s already mostly done
1:38 PM <rehrar> Preannouncement that Purism wants to collaborate with us further, especially our hardware people
1:38 PM ⇐ al-maisan quit ([email protected]/monetas/al-maisan) Quit: See you later..
1:38 PM <rehrar> oops ErCiccione, that’s what I meant. Do we have a timeline for 0.12.1?
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1:39 PM <+moneromooo> pony said on the 9th IIRC. Not sure if still up though, he said there’d be preliminary builds, which there weren’t so far.
1:39 PM <rehrar> care to comment mr fluffypony?
1:39 PM <ErCiccione> rehrar: afaik we have 3 PR ready to be merged. After those are merged: code freeze -> refresh all translations and embed guide -> 0.12.1
1:39 PM <rehrar> fluffypony: “I’m not a crook” *holds up V sign*
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1:40 PM <rehrar> this will be helpful to push it out since afaiu ledger will officially realase after that
1:41 PM <rbrunner> And getting rid of those syncing bug, right?
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1:41 PM <dEBRUYNE> I’d like for 0.12.1 to be released soon as well (if the devs say it’s ready)
1:41 PM <dEBRUYNE> It will significantly reduce the amount of support that is required :p
1:42 PM <dEBRUYNE> + it will finally enable users to use Monero on Ledger
1:42 PM <rehrar> alright, deadline tomorrow
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1:42 PM <dEBRUYNE> 😀
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1:42 PM <dEBRUYNE> On a side note, you can use a Ledger wallet w/ the GUI as long as it’s generated by the CLI
1:42 PM <@fluffypony> I’m on bad Internet until later this coming week, so the plan is to finalise it then
1:43 PM <@fluffypony> I think we’re mostly done with merges on the CLI side
1:43 PM <dEBRUYNE> For the GUI too fwiw
1:43 PM <+moneromooo> There’s just 3753, it seems useful, but a bit dicey maybe.
1:44 PM <rehrar> Anyways now that that’s settled (somewhat), let’s move on for a bit here. Alex_LocalMonero wants to talk about payment IDs. He’s quite supportive of them and wants to give everyone a high five for their invention.
1:44 PM <rehrar> then we can talk PRs
1:44 PM <Alex_LocalMonero> Thank you rehrar.
1:44 PM <dEBRUYNE> I’d like for that one to be included moneromooo. Still everyday someone seems to be on the wrong chain 😛
1:44 PM <Alex_LocalMonero> Honorable gentlemen.
1:44 PM <Alex_LocalMonero> Your fluffyness.
1:45 PM <Alex_LocalMonero> It is our opinion at LocalMonero that separate payment IDs (SPIs) need to die.
1:45 PM <Alex_LocalMonero> SPIs increase the complexity of Monero, a common complaint for many new users.
1:45 PM <Alex_LocalMonero> SPIs increase the amount of support that is required for us to process.
1:46 PM <Alex_LocalMonero> SPIs create a loss of productivity for everyone involved.
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1:46 PM <+moneromooo> That’s the same point said three times.
1:46 PM <Alex_LocalMonero> Not exactly.
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1:46 PM <+hyc> I thought payment IDs were already deprecated
1:46 PM <endogenic> yeah well why could just write moneromö instead
1:46 PM <vtnerd> so you want it to be always an integrated paynent id?
1:46 PM <Alex_LocalMonero> Yes.
1:46 PM <+moneromooo> They are, and it’s the destination’s choice what to use, so…
1:47 PM <Alex_LocalMonero> Most exchanges still use SPIs, unfortunately.
1:47 PM <endogenic> anything can be put into extra tho right?
1:47 PM <Alex_LocalMonero> One exchange, I believe it’s Bitfinex, even started charging people $20 for recovering deposits that forgot to include payment IDs.
1:47 PM <+moneromooo> Yes (within the size limit).
1:48 PM <endogenic> so they could technically still keep using them
1:48 PM <Alex_LocalMonero> Which is why I believe they need to completely spliced out in the RPC and CLI and GUI wallets.
1:48 PM <endogenic> we moved to generating integrated addresses rather than SPIs fwiw
1:48 PM <endogenic> and short PIDs which are entered are automagically treated as an integrated addr of course
1:48 PM <+moneromooo> No. They stay for backward compatibility. I’d be OK with a warning though.
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1:49 PM <Alex_LocalMonero> moneromooo, the value from backward compatibility is far outweighed by the loss of productivity that is caused by the increased complexity.
1:49 PM <endogenic> well there’s the argument that long pids are a privacy issue somehow
1:49 PM <@fluffypony> endogenic: agreed
1:49 PM <endogenic> they rely on the client generating random and unique data
1:50 PM <@fluffypony> we should just put in a notice of deprecation with a timeline
1:50 PM <rehrar> do subaddresses also not address this issue?
1:50 PM <@fluffypony> say something like 2 year’s time
1:50 PM <@fluffypony> rehrar: yes
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1:50 PM <rehrar> in that sense, we should almost get rid of integrated addresses altogether
1:50 PM <rehrar> subaddresses are just so easy from a UX perspective
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1:50 PM <Alex_LocalMonero> I would argue against that.
1:50 PM <Alex_LocalMonero> Integrated addresses are much better for us to manage.
1:51 PM <endogenic> subaddresses haven’t been audited enough either
1:51 PM <rehrar> Alex_LocalMonero: the eternal struggle of easier for the user vs easier for the vendor
1:51 PM <@fluffypony> we should deprecate PIDs in favour of integrated addresses over like 2 years, and then deprecate those in favour of subaddresses over the next 2 years
1:51 PM <endogenic> would agree, fwiw ^
1:51 PM <rehrar> fluffypony: Monero’s got like another half year left in the tank at best
1:52 PM <Alex_LocalMonero> Aren’t subadresses less scalable?
1:52 PM <@ArticMine> That seems like a good plan
1:52 PM <endogenic> Alex_LocalMonero: on a scanning side, maybe, but we can look at techniques
1:52 PM <@fluffypony> and we don’t remove support for receiving / parsing them
1:52 PM <@fluffypony> just for creating txs with them
1:52 PM <@ArticMine> Yes very important
1:52 PM <Alex_LocalMonero> That’s perfect.
1:53 PM <sarang> endogenic: on the scanning side it reduces to a hash lookup
1:53 PM <@fluffypony> Alex_LocalMonero: unless you have 500 million customers you’re not going to worry
1:53 PM <@fluffypony> scanning side is plenty scalable
1:53 PM <Alex_LocalMonero> How dare you assume we won’t have 500 million customers?
1:53 PM <@fluffypony> ^^ what sarang said
1:54 PM <@fluffypony> lol
1:54 PM <rehrar> to get this moved along more quickly, there can be educational support instead of changing the code as well
1:54 PM <sarang> If anything the scanning is just annoying if you have to do wallet recovery
1:54 PM <rehrar> if we get things like Monero Integrations to only offer integrated addresses, and all other vendor tools to do the same, then it will be a natural transition.
1:55 PM <Alex_LocalMonero> May I ask for the SPIs to be phased out within 1 year instead of 2 years?
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1:56 PM <rehrar> 2 years is like a millineum in cryptocurrency world
1:56 PM <Alex_LocalMonero> Exactly.
1:56 PM <+moneromooo> You’d need all exchanges to have switched within that time. I don’t see that happening.
1:56 PM <+moneromooo> You could say it’s their problem, true 🙂
1:56 PM <rbrunner> 2 years like a millenium won’t stay that way
1:56 PM <Alex_LocalMonero> Exchanges aren’t going to start switching until the last week in any case, I guarantee it moneromooo.
1:56 PM <@fluffypony> what if we put it out as a disclosure
1:56 PM <cryptochangement> rehrar: oops I was supposed to get Monero Integrations on only integrated addresses like a couple weeks ago and got distracted lol
1:56 PM <rbrunner> Things *have* to calm down
1:56 PM <@fluffypony> ie. it’s a privacy risk, here we’re responsibly disclosing, here’s the list of exchanges we contacted
1:56 PM <@fluffypony> here’s the list that have taken action
1:57 PM <dEBRUYNE> fluffypony: that would basically be a recommendation for exchanges to either use integrated addresses or subaddresses right?
1:57 PM <Alex_LocalMonero> Yes.
1:58 PM <Alex_LocalMonero> With a tack of passive aggressiveness.
1:58 PM <rehrar> full on aggressiveness is the way to go here
1:58 PM <rehrar> “don’t you know Monero buys hitmen?”
1:58 PM <@ArticMine> Given the long term plan the recommendation should be sub addresses
1:58 PM <Alex_LocalMonero> I agree. I think this in conjunction with a 1-year phasing out timeline for SPIs is the best way to go.
1:59 PM <Alex_LocalMonero> We won’t bare 2 years of these goddamn SPI tickets.
1:59 PM <jdoejfbeibridje> can we do a ffs for subaddress audits?
1:59 PM <Alex_LocalMonero> They are clogging up our support way too much.
1:59 PM <rehrar> Alex_LocalMonero: why do your business not do integrated only?
1:59 PM <Alex_LocalMonero> We do do integrated only.
1:59 PM <+moneromooo> Just charge them for the time. Good solution, and extra revenue stream.
1:59 PM <@luigi1111> Hard to stop using them before exchanges stop requiring them
2:00 PM <rehrar> ^ luigi1111 this is indeed the thing
2:00 PM <rehrar> we have to force the hand of the exchanges
2:00 PM <Alex_LocalMonero> The problem is that people want to withdraw from LocalMonero to places like Bittrex that use SPIs
2:00 PM <rehrar> in essence, we are putting our usability for users at their mercy
2:00 PM <rehrar> force the hand of the exchanges. They will switch over. Then we can move on in peace.
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2:00 PM <pigeons> jdoejfbeibridje: I’d like to see more review of subaddresses as well
2:01 PM <+moneromooo> What’s your problem then ? Once you’ve coded that, it’s a one off. People forget to use it ? Then they cry to bittrex, not you.
2:01 PM <rehrar> I don’t think there’s any denying that SPIs are a UX nightmare
2:01 PM <+moneromooo> And bitrex can charge them ^_^
2:01 PM <Alex_LocalMonero> The move from integrated addresses to subaddresses doesn’t incur a loss of productivity or increase in complexity.
2:01 PM <iDunk> Bittrex it too afraid to ever touch anything Monero unless they have to.
2:01 PM <Alex_LocalMonero> The move from SPIs to integrated addresses will lead to an overall increase in the productivity of the entire Monero ecosystem.
2:01 PM <@luigi1111> Polo did finally upgrade to integrated a while back
2:02 PM <Alex_LocalMonero> Yes, thank god.
2:02 PM <@luigi1111> But it’s a good guess bittrex won’t ever without some motivation
2:02 PM <Alex_LocalMonero> 100%
2:02 PM <rehrar> I agree with Alex that many exchanges won’t do anything until they are forced to, and at the last second at that
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2:03 PM <Alex_LocalMonero> They’d rather charge people $20 to credit the SPI-less deposits instead of updating their Monero-interfacing software.
2:03 PM <Alex_LocalMonero> Which is a loss to the economy.
2:03 PM <msvb-lab> Whoever can understand monero development well and will be at DefCon Las Vegas, please submit a speaking proposal for our Monero/BCOS village at:
2:03 PM <Alex_LocalMonero> And a negative effect.
2:03 PM <msvb-lab> https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLScnDevCkvDNQpfO-ktisAtWIx7z3M_6zX0qSbhDVRsIVEIF4w/viewform
2:03 PM <Alex_LocalMonero> On the user experience.
2:03 PM <rehrar> yes Alex_LocalMonero and this alone could give users a bad taste in their mouths about Monero period
2:04 PM <Alex_LocalMonero> A newb is like “this Monero thing is crazy, with Bitcoin I just send to an address and that’s that, with this Monero there’s this weird field and because I didn’t know about it now I have to pay bitfinex $20”
2:04 PM <Alex_LocalMonero> “Screw this, I’ll never use Monero again”
New messages since you tabbed out
2:04 PM <iDunk> rehrar: that came out right 🙂
2:04 PM <rehrar> 😛
2:05 PM <rehrar> the crazy thing is, the solution is already invented and ready to go
2:05 PM <rehrar> it just needs to be enforced
2:05 PM <Alex_LocalMonero> Exactly.
2:05 PM <UkoeHB> If it’s hard to move exchanges to integrated, it will be almost impossible then move them to subaddresses.
2:05 PM <Alex_LocalMonero> Subaddresses aren’t such a huge upgrade for vendors.
2:05 PM <Alex_LocalMonero> So there’s no need to enforce it.
2:05 PM <Alex_LocalMonero> Because it doesn’t provide decreased complexity of a user’s depositing experience.
2:05 PM <rehrar> I agree with the 1 year deprecation, but I’m just a guy with a dream
2:06 PM <rehrar> either way, good discussion. For those that need to go, please feel free. We’re over the hour.
2:06 PM <gingeropolous> “<Alex_LocalMonero> They’d rather charge people $20 to credit the SPI-less deposits instead of updating their Monero-interfacing software.” >> i mentioned a while back trying to invent a way for new daemons to only work with new wallets
2:06 PM <rehrar> Also, msvb-lab is correct. If you are going to defcon and would like to present something, please consider submitting a speaking proposal
2:06 PM <UkoeHB> Integrated are more intuitive for laymen, and provide the same ultimate function
2:06 PM <gingeropolous> i’ve got a feeling most exchanges just leave the wallets alone and update the daemons
2:07 PM <rehrar> next meeting in two weeks time