開發者會議紀錄

開發者會議紀錄 DevMeeting 20180701

完整會議紀錄：

1:00 PM rehrar> alright you dev types
1:00 PM rehrar> it’s time to have a meeting
1:00 PM rehrar> everyone has been prepinged, but if I missed someone please ping them
1:00 PM rehrar> 1. Greetings
1:01 PM — needmoney90 yawns
1:02 PM rbrunner> Hi
1:02 PM ⇐ TinusMars quit (5740c9b5@gateway/web/freenode/ip.87.64.201.181) Ping timeout: 260 seconds
1:03 PM pigeons> hi
1:03 PM rehrar> lul, if we don’t get more people, it may not be worth having a meeting today
1:03 PM +moneromooo> I’m here fwiw.
1:03 PM erciccione_[m]> hello
1:03 PM rehrar> if that’s the case, we can skip to a couple weeks from now or next week, whatever is most appropriate
1:03 PM rehrar> Well, let’s continue all the same.
1:03 PM endogenic> you only need one
1:03 PM rehrar> 2. What’s been done since the previous meeting?
1:03 PM needmoney90> I need money
1:03 PM needmoney90> Oh
1:03 PM needmoney90> Dev on Merkato is progressing well
1:04 PM needmoney90> Though we may be coding more bugs than actual code
1:04 PM needmoney90> So it goes
1:04 PM — endogenic runs the lawn sprinklers from the testnet faucet for needmoney90
1:06 PM needmoney90> Endogenic I have some extra of the tokenized fluffypony rare Pepe, maybe we could give them out for free if you attend 4 consecutive Dev meetings
1:06 PM needmoney90> Lol
1:06 PM needmoney90> Just trying to think of how to get people to show up
1:06 PM needmoney90> I was actually looking forward to being awake for this one
1:07 PM rbrunner> Holiday season already in full swing then?
1:07 PM needmoney90> Seems it
1:07 PM rehrar> 3. Next meeting time? :d
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1:07 PM endogenic> needmoney90: what would a milk cow do with a rare pepe?
1:08 PM rbrunner> Anybody heard anything from Fluffy about that, I nearly am afraid to ask, GUI 0.12.2.0?
1:08 PM rehrar> 3. Any additional meeting items
1:08 PM rehrar> rbrunner: good question
1:09 PM rbrunner> That’s southern hemnisphere, so no holiday season for Fluffy yet, no?
1:09 PM endogenic> it’s winter there
1:09 PM erciccione_[m]> i PMd him today rbrunner, he told me he is working on it today, also dEBRUYNE heard from him few days ago and the linux and mac os x builds are done, only need to be updated
1:09 PM rbrunner> Good to hear!
1:10 PM endogenic> nice erciccione_[m]
1:10 PM endogenic> erciccione_[m] wdyt of my idea for design from last time?
1:10 PM endogenic> not sure if you saw it
1:10 PM rehrar> Yay!
1:10 PM endogenic> i know one person liked it at least
1:10 PM rbrunner> What was that again?
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1:11 PM erciccione_[m]> endogenic: i think i missed it
1:11 PM endogenic> so the idea is that design on the GUI should follow a more consistent principle where data is shown based on its more implicit or mathematical form instead of in a stylized UI
1:11 PM endogenic> a basic example is a spreadsheet
1:11 PM endogenic> so the idea is that you can take the UI from the CLI
1:11 PM endogenic> and translate it directly to GUI
1:11 PM endogenic> that really simplifies dev IMO
1:11 PM rehrar> target audience?
1:12 PM endogenic> cause it helps people work in the same direction instead of own directions
1:12 PM endogenic> i mean, in terms of design
1:12 PM endogenic> target audience? everyone
1:12 PM endogenic> you can expose things to power users
1:12 PM endogenic> that’s good design
1:12 PM rbrunner> Hmmm … not sure I understand … maybe mock-up some screenshot or two how that could look?
1:13 PM endogenic> argh wish i had time
1:13 PM endogenic> maybe i can in a few wks
1:13 PM rbrunner> :)
1:13 PM endogenic> the CLI has all the data though
1:13 PM endogenic> see what i mean?
1:13 PM endogenic> the biggest hurdle is just opening a command line prompt and running the binary
1:13 PM rbrunner> Output from the CLI, but not command line to input commands, but interactively?
1:13 PM endogenic> for ordinary ppl
1:14 PM endogenic> rbrunner: so that’s an interesting idea for sure.. i mean, it could be a first step
1:14 PM endogenic> it’s similar to what i mean
1:14 PM endogenic> i mean we need a more flexible design principle
1:15 PM endogenic> then things can be fit into it
1:15 PM xmrmatterbridge> erciccione> endogenic: Sounds cool, but who would work on it?
1:15 PM endogenic> that allows the base to be built very simple and stably instead of repeatedly
1:15 PM rbrunner> Anyway, the GUI is scarily behind right now in functionality: no accounts, no multisig
1:15 PM endogenic> erciccione_[m]: doesn’t matter
1:15 PM endogenic> i mean it’s important for that to be decided
1:15 PM rbrunner> Maybe your idea would help here?
1:15 PM endogenic> but eventually people have to decide for themselves
1:15 PM endogenic> rbrunner: exactly
1:16 PM endogenic> efficiency is a thing
1:16 PM rbrunner> One can dream, right :)
1:16 PM endogenic> well we have to bake it into our architecture
1:16 PM endogenic> and design
1:16 PM endogenic> we have to design for simplicity
1:16 PM endogenic> i know it sounds abstract now
1:17 PM endogenic> but someone could supplant the GUI fairly easily by the method you suggested
1:17 PM rehrar> so reduce the GUI to this foundational base, and if other people want they can fork and stylize
1:17 PM endogenic> funny enough, a goal of GUI dev can be to not have to spend time on GUI dev
1:17 PM endogenic> no not fork
1:17 PM endogenic> there’s no need at all
1:17 PM endogenic> why not make a plugin architecture?
1:17 PM endogenic> i mean it doesn’t have to be a huge plugin system
1:18 PM rehrar> Yes, this is something I’ve been planning on for a project I’m working on.
1:18 PM endogenic> it doesn’t even have to exist at first
1:18 PM rehrar> Plugin/Extensions
1:18 PM rehrar> People can build the GUI that they want
1:18 PM rehrar> but I disagree that this CLI/GUI hybrid is a be all end all. It will not fly with the average person.
1:19 PM rehrar> The problems do not just start and end with opening up the CLI. People are used to buttons. People like guidance in the apps, etc.
1:19 PM endogenic> i think we have a slight misunderstanding
1:19 PM endogenic> you need buttons but what guideline decides where you place them?
1:19 PM endogenic> or what the buttons are?
1:19 PM endogenic> right now, there isn’t specific functional parity btwn the cli and the gui
1:20 PM endogenic> what i’m saying is, what if we start with that just as a basis
1:20 PM endogenic> like, at least that.
1:20 PM endogenic> that should be a low target
1:20 PM endogenic> to expand on that is super easy
1:20 PM endogenic> whereever the app GUI code is asking for the class name for a given view, you extract that out into a single function
1:20 PM endogenic> then you let that function be overridden by a plugin system
1:21 PM endogenic> then anyone can replace that view
1:21 PM endogenic> there are other ways to do it
1:21 PM endogenic> so what i’m saying is, no need to fork, really
1:21 PM rehrar> Ok, I think I get it a bit better now. :)
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1:21 PM rbrunner> Anyway, and slightly off-topic: I got them impression that many people that now shy away from the CLI would be perfectly capable to operate it - if they tried
1:21 PM rehrar> rbrunner: this is true, it’s not hard
1:21 PM rbrunner> Psychology in action
1:22 PM rbrunner> Maybe rename to “it’s not hard, honest, wallet” :)
1:22 PM pigeons> its simpler, you can explain exactly what to do to get the result, which can be a little more variable with a gui
1:22 PM rehrar> but time spent convincing people to use something they are uncomfortable with is time not spent using an app that already adheres to existing expectations
1:23 PM rbrunner> Yeah
1:23 PM rehrar> either way, any further discussion on this stuff?
1:23 PM rehrar> Neat idea, for sure.
1:24 PM endogenic> rehrar: imho an app never adheres to expectations .. nor should it need to.. but it should strive to be untuitive
1:24 PM endogenic> intuitive lol
1:24 PM KnifeOfPi> nobody tagged me :(
1:24 PM rehrar> poor choice of words on my part, because I agree with you
1:24 PM rbrunner> Hu, that’s one big can of worms, that with “intuitive”
1:24 PM rehrar> intuitiveness is everything
1:24 PM endogenic> like, if the monero gui were really intuitive
1:24 PM endogenic> it’d be closer to physical bearer bonds
1:25 PM rehrar> intuitive has a very simple definition in regards to UX imo rbrunner
1:25 PM rehrar> trial and error of ONE time to achieve your goal
1:25 PM rbrunner> But nearly as many opinions as people what it is :)
1:25 PM rbrunner> Interesting definition
1:26 PM rehrar> It’s a fairly standard one held in many UX circles
1:26 PM rehrar> Brand new interface, never seen it before, don’t know what’s up or down. Have to figure it out through trial and error maybe. But an intuitive interface my first trial is successful, on every single goal I have for the application.
1:27 PM rehrar> Because it is designed in such a way that even though it is new to me, I still know what to do
1:28 PM rehrar> Alright, well, unless there’s any further discussion or meeting items, we can see about meeting in a couple weeks?
1:28 PM rehrar> I’ll give a couple minutes for some other stuff to come up though. :)
1:28 PM endogenic> rehrar: my point is not realy about making the GUI intuitive though
1:29 PM rbrunner> Some nice words for untagged KnifeOpPi, maybe :)
1:29 PM endogenic> i’m saying there’s a way to make dev much more efficient
1:29 PM rbrunner> KnifeOfPi*
1:30 PM KnifeOfPi> what I can say is that we have some nice plans at cake for a more intuitive UX. :D
1:30 PM rbrunner> endogenic: Yes, understood. But maybe it would get more intuitive as well on the way
1:30 PM endogenic> in the GUI system i’m talking about, where the problem is will be much clearer
1:30 PM endogenic> rbrunner: i hope so
1:31 PM rbrunner> Anyway, “intuitive” multisig in any gui will be quite a challenge, if you ask me
1:31 PM rbrunner> and a lot of work
1:31 PM endogenic> rbrunner: i think that will come to representing the actual use cases concretely
1:33 PM rbrunner> Well, yes, why not?
1:34 PM rehrar> alrighty guys, 15th at 17:00 UTC?
1:34 PM rbrunner> Ok
1:34 PM rehrar> thanks for everyone who came!
1:34 PM rbrunner> Thank you for moderation